3CR
 Community Radio 855am

THE RADIO-ACTIVE SHOW

With Eric Miller, Ila Marks and Cherrie

Saturday at 10.00 am

2nd October 1999

ConRadSat 18.04 - 18.32 (Thursday 5th October)

Ila Marks: Hello and Welcome to the Radioactive Show brought to you by the Sustainable Energy and Anti-Uranium Service. My name is Ila Marks me in the studio is Eric Miller. The Radioactive Show is a weekly program bringing you news and information on nuclear, peace and energy issues.

On today's show we hear that the new research reactor at Lucas Heights in Sydney has got its clearance, also the MOX fuel that sailed past Australia is getting unloaded in Japan. But first we go the disastrous nuclear accident at Tokaimura, 200 kilometres from Tokyo. A hole was blown in the roof of a plant where nuclear fuel rods were being fabricated. People were asked to vacate or stay indoors in the local village.

The uranium in the nuclear fuel fabrication plant also became critical and started a chain reaction and stayed that way for 24 hours. Eric Miller spoke to John Hallum from Friends of the Earth Sydney

Eric Miller: John, this disaster that is happening in Japan now, does this mean there are quite big ramifications from it?

John Hallum: Well it certainly does. One of the most important things to note about this disaster is that it does appear to be a criticality accident. Now a criticality accident is one of the most fundamental forms of disaster that you can possibly have. The problem with a criticality accident is that it is such a simple and very basic thing in terms of nuclear safety. We've known about criticality ever since we have known about nuclear power. We've known that if you get more than a critical mass of uranium or whatever together then you will have a criticality accident and that is exactly what they have done.

So what that does is, it reflects very, very badly on the safety regime of management of that place and the Japanese themselves know that very well. It will therefore have very serious implications for the whole of the Japanese nuclear power industry. The Japanese have had very ambitious plans to build more nuclear power plants. I think that it is quite clear that those plans that were all ready meeting very strong resistance from the citizen's movement … That those plans will basically be un-viable in the light of this accident.

Eric Miller: Now this is the forth accident that Japan has had in recent history, so each time the Japanese public are becoming more and more critical of the nuclear industry?

John Hallum: Well indeed so. The other thing to bare in mind as Australians is that 40% of exports from Energy Resources Australia, the company that's planning to mine Jabiluka do in fact go to Japanese power companies. Now the official line in Japan has been 'well of course we have this wonderful safety record and every things great and that it is only in the terrible places like America where they have all of these un-necessary regulations that they actually have safety problems. Here in Japan we are very efficient … ' But as you have seen there have been a series of accidents. An accident at … (Japan's fuel fabrication plant) not so long ago, there was the accident at the fast breeder a couple of years back … So the nuclear power industry in Japan is starting to get a reputation for itself that it is anything but good. And again the Japanese people and the Japanese anti-movement … that fact won't be lost on them.

Eric Miller: When we look at Japan we feel that they are at the cutting edge of technology but most accidents happen with human error with this one.

John Hallum: Yes indeed, I mean what's been done, like I said is something very simple. It is a little hard for me to understand how this exactly happened. Because I would have thought that there would have been a million and one different safety mechanisms to make sure that a prompt critical mass of uranium or anything else couldn't possibly happen, and the geometry of the containers and every thing else would completely preclude it. But that's not so because it happened.

Eric Miller: There were people on the local golf course that got a high dose of radiation. So it sounds like the general public around the plant have a lot to fear.

John Hallum: I understand that some 55 people have been exposed to significant doses of radiation, but two people do seem to be in a very, very serious condition indeed. I also understand that the Japanese public have been receiving contradictory instructions about what they should do. Should they evacuate or should they stay in doors. So there is a whole lot of fear and confusion around the plant as well. Apparently the armies been called in and train services near the plant have been suspended and also bus services. And apparently also the power plant accident has totally dominated NHK news in Japan. The Japanese themselves will well and truly be having their heads rubbed in it. This must make a vast difference to the way in which they view nuclear power. It must make it well neigh impossible for ambitious construction schemes to proceed.

Eric Miller: Now they were just doing fuel fabrication, and although it was enriched uranium they were dealing with … this is mean to be to be a quite simple operation.

John Hallum: Yes it is, and again that's what in some ways is so puzzling and that's what leads one to think that there must be something fundamentally wrong with the safety culture at that plant. We know that that plant has had problems before. The operations of PNC which it is kind of affiliated to, that's the Japanese Nuclear Development Corporation, the government owner company, which has in fact been developing the reprocessing plant and the enrichment plant and which operates the whole complex up there. We know that that company has had severe safety problems in the past.

Ila Marks: You are listening to the Radioactive Show on Community Radio 3CR. It has been said that the workers were fabricating fuel rods for the JOYO, the experimental fast breeder reactor. It uses uranium that is normally enriched to 19% and mixed with plutonium, but it seems that there was no plutonium involved in the accident. Japan's other fast breeder reactor, the prototype fast breeder reactor, suffered a disastrous fire a couple of years ago, back to John Hallum.

John Hallum: Monju would be out of the running now, after the disastrous fire they had the other year. I mean Monju is an example of the disastrous things that have been happening in Japan. There was an absolutely catastrophic fire at their fast breeder reactor and that has all but distorted their reactor and there was a huge safety cover up followed by a series of suicides amongst officials after that. So that we a very serious thing indeed.

Eric Miller: We have seem all over the world that once there's nuclear accidents there have been cover ups and Japan has really been in that with its last number of accidents that's happened. So I suppose it won't be for years before we actually find out actually what went wrong and how much radiation got out of that plant.

John Hallum: I would imagine that it would take a considerable while before we have a complete handle on what happened. But I would expect to know the basics and be able to make some sort of intelligent assessment in roughly a week. I'm certainly scanning my e-mails and looking for every conceivable bit of information on this one that I can. So I would expect to have some reasonable information within a relatively short time, but of course the real skeletons in the cupboards won't be out for years.

Eric Miller: Now you mentioned that a lot of Australia's uranium goes to Japan, that is just one problem with it and why we should not be exporting uranium, isn't it?

John Hallum: Well indeed and I mean this proves what the anti-nuclear and anti-uranium movement has been saying all alone in Australia. We have been arguing that the nuclear fuel cycle poses risks that are such that Australia should not be involved in it. It's a very, very simple proposition and this just proves our point yet again. I wonder how much it takes for people to actually get the point. We have been saying for 20 - 25 years that nuclear power - the nuclear fuel cycle represents an unacceptable risk to the life systems of the whole plant, and here we are yet again. There has been yet another accident, in yet another way, again in a way we hadn't thought possible. I suppose again the usual spin-doctors will come out and tell us it really wasn't anything at all.

Ila Marks: That was John Hallum from Friends of the Earth Sydney. Bringing the accident closer to home, 40% of ERA's uranium goes to Japan and the Roxby mine sells uranium to Japan as well.

Still on Japan, the MOX fuel has travelled by two ships from France and Britain, past Australia to Japan. MOX fuel is a mixture of uranium and plutonium; it is used in nuclear reactors. The ships have taken 2 and a half months to reach Japan. Eric Miller spoke to Benedict Southworth from Greenpeace in Sydney.

Eric Miller: Benedict, last time we spoke we were wondering whether the MOX shipments would have to turn back or not, what happened with them?

Benedict Southworth: Well, the Japanese government and nuclear generation companies have decided to go ahead and allow the shipment to dock in Japan. One of the boats entered a port in Japan a couple of days ago and we were of course, as you would expect, Greenpeace was there bearing witness to the arrival of this fuel. There was a very high security presence. Boats, Japanese commandos in full riot gear to try and stop Greenpeace from undertaking a peaceful protest.

Eric Miller: Right, the boat had trouble getting into port, there was bad weather?

Benedict Southworth: Yes there was incredibly bad weather. There was a typhoon and the Japanese authorities wait outside of territorial waters while they rode out the storm. Despite all of the assurances they were slightly worried about ships loaded with nuclear material trying to come into shore in bad whether.

Eric Miller: These ships they don't just unload at the one port, they go to several different ports in Japan?

Benedict Southworth: Yes they are currently making their way around Japan and we got one of the Greenpeace boats out, Sunrise is currently shadowing them and trying to protest.

Eric Miller: There was lots of protests around the boats from counties and from NGO's and the like, but Australian government didn't put any protests up against them?

Benedict Southworth: The Australian government has failed to make the sorts of protests against these shipments that we have seen from other countries in the region. In fact in the next few days there is a South Pacific Forum meeting in which the Australian government is going to be, I think, plainly embarrassed once more by the fact that whilst other countries in the region are expressing their concern the Australians are just quite keen to allow these shipments to take place.

Of course the reason why they are keen to allow these shipments to take place is because Australia is right up to its neck in the nuclear industry. We ourselves, we are going to have to send high level waste from Australia to France for reprocessing and all of that will come back. It is sort of a quid pro quo for Australian involvement in the nuclear industry that we will allow these dangerous shipments to come past Australia.

Eric Miller: With it setting off, there were protests with Greenpeace there and with setting down, do you think this will continue on if these shipments keep coming past our shores?

Benedict Southworth: Yes, I think whilst the powers that control these shipments, and governments like Australia that don't stand up for the rights of the transit countries and the rights of the environment, then these protests will only get larger. At the moment there are not safe guards for the people who live along these routes. Whilst people don't feel happy sitting on a nuclear highway, then these protests will continue.

Ila Marks: That music was Suicide System from the CD Uranium Don't Dig It, recorded at the Jabiluka Blockade. And before that you were listening to Benedict Southworth from Greenpeace speaking from his office in Sydney.

The federal government wants to build a new nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights in Sydney. The federal regulatory agency ARPANSA has just licensed the site at Lucas Heights for the reactor to be built. Eric Miller spoke to Michael Priceman from People Against the Nuclear Reactor.

Eric Miller: Michael, ARPANSA has given the site clearance for the nuclear rector at Lucas Heights, what is ARPANSA?

Michael Priceman: ARPANSA is the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency. They have been in force since February this year and they're really feeling their way. They have a set of regulations and a legislative Act to work under. At the moment the task of licencing, or refusing to licence every item of radiation production or use in Australia, because there has never been anything like this in Australia before. Even though a proper regulator is advised under international conventions. We have just decided to forget about it until now.

Eric Miller: So under the International Atomic Energy Agency we are meant to have these regulatory bodies to look over nuclear installation.

Michael Priceman: Yes that's right, so at the moment ANSTO, which is Australian Nuclear Science and Technical Organisation has decided, they want a new reactor, they have put in a licence application, the very first one in Australian history, for the licensing of the site to take a new reactor. The result that came out this week that I got half an hour ago, or part of, it is the first acknowledgment and the first approval on a site.

Eric Miller: So who makes the decision on this, is there a committee that does it?

Michael Priceman: Well this is part of the ARPANSA organisation and I think that in this particular case it will be the same people who used to be the Nuclear Safety Bureau which comprises about 7 or 8 people, most of whom used to work, several years ago at ANSTO. When that organisation was originally formed they were seconded to it from ANSTO. In more recent times they have been fully paid by the Nuclear Safety Bureau. Now they have been observed into ARPANSA. So these are people that know the site, know all of the people who work there - close connections.

Eric Miller: So are there any environmentalist or community people that are on those committees?

Michael Priceman: The ARPANSA committees, there is room on the councils they have within them for community representatives. Now one has been chosen for the council. He is a local person whom we have never heard of in any community field. But we are hoping to make contact with him soon to find out where he comes from and what his whole knowledge of the are is. With regard to environmental representatives, the Minister, which is the Minister for Health…. Commonwealth … said that he is making room for representatives from the environmental movement. But the first two names that were provided to for him from the PEAK bodies were passed to the CEO of the ARPANSA, who accepted them; they then went on to the minister who refused them. Then he started looking around again and we are in limbo at the moment. We have got a feeling that they want people on those committees that they can control and that don't ask too many impertinent questions.

Eric Miller: so the environment groups have submitted more people for those committees and you haven't heard back?

Michael Priceman: We haven't heard back, not a word. So we might get some people from another planet with environmental credentials that we don't know about.

Eric Miller: So this community person. He's not known to people in the local council or to people in local environment groups?

Michael Priceman: No, he is described as a local computer software analysts, or consultant. So we really don't know much about him at all.

Eric Miller: Now this is all going on while you have got a health survey going on as well?

Michael Priceman: Yes, the health survey has nothing to do with the commonwealth government, nothing to do with ANSTO, it's a deal that was brokered between the local Greens, the green party down here and the state government, just before the last NSW state election. The state government has always been very, very quite about the subject of ANSTO. They don't want to get involved. The agreement was there should be a health study of local residents and there should be an inquiry into the safety and emergency plans surrounding the reactor, or the reactor site. The reason for dragging in the state government is because that is the body that has the responsibility for public health and public safety and emergency plans. Anything that happens off site of ANSTO, which incidentally the site belongs to the commonwealth government and neither the state government or the local council have any influence or powers over what goes on at the site when it comes to environmental matters.

Eric Miller: Do you think that these health matters and safety matters should be look at before a new reactor is built?

Michael Priceman: We certainly think that, but they don't take any great notice of us. Obviously if you are going into a proper health study, and I'm talking about, a proper one where you look back through a lot of records. That could take a couple of years and that could blow the plans out of the water of putting a new reactor in by 2005.

Eric Miller: People around the area have been asking for a health survey for quite a while now, haven't they?

Michael Priceman: Of the top of my head, about 20 years.

Eric Miller: The NSW Cancer Council, did they find a higher rate of cancer in your area?

Michael Priceman: Yes, slightly higher, but they say they can't sheet it back to a particular area, they haven't looked for a source, I mean this is a highly contentious subject wherever cancer clusters are discovered. But we are not just talking about cancer; we are talking about other problems like thyroid problems. Some thyroid problems are directly related to iodine, and iodine 131 is one of the things they pump out of the reactor every time they operate it.

Eric Miller: So most of the information comes from ANSTO, and ARPANSA, all of the people are put forward by the government. So they can get the results they want.

Michael Priceman: Yes it is a closed shop, you could describe it as incestuous I suppose.

Ila Marks: That was Eric Miller speaking to Michael Priceman from People Against the Nuclear Reactor. Now Eric you have some comments you want to make on this disastrous accident.

Eric Miller: Yes, we are all blaming the crook safety records of Japan. You have just heard Michael talking about our safety body ARPANSA and how the environment representatives on that body haven't been appointed yet. Yet they are giving site clearance to nuclear facilities like a new reactor, and how the people on ARPANSA come out of ANSTO, the government and it is all a cosy boys situation. The same thing could be happening here in Australia.

Here we have a plutonium shipment going passed our shores and the government isn't saying anything about it. So we would have the same situation happening here in Australia. Those ships were going to be turned back because the pellets inside those fuel rods, the size of them were not checked. If they were too big they could swell under heat and split the rods open; if they are too small they vibrate and split the rods open as well. So it is a very dangerous situation using those rods in a nuclear reactor yet the Japanese government and the Japanese nuclear facility have passed those rods without those specialised checks on them. The whole situation goes on.

Ila Marks: Yes indeed, thanks Eric. But that’s all from the Radioactive Show this week. The Radioactive Show is now being heard on the Community Radio Satellite Network. The Radioactive Show is produced in studios of 3CR. You are able to contact us if you have an issue you want raised or any comments about the programs, you will find us at ra3cr@hotmail.com And of course our web address www.sea-us.org.au

Transcript produced by Ila Marks - with much thanks!!!
Page last updated December 5, 1999.
Back to the Radio-Active Show Archivesor Back to the SEA-US Front Page

Copyright © SEA-US 1999